And that was March of 1983. This is my third bite at the apple, and I wasn't going to lose it this time. We went to the apartment, and I bought the painting, and at the same time, the familythis was from one of the largest commissions of the 17th century, and the last two paintings were still in the hands of a man whose name was the same as the man who signed the commissioning documents 400 years before. JUDITH RICHARDS: at the very beginning. [00:38:00]. JUDITH RICHARDS: Did you find it fulfilling? I mean, I'm very social. I said, "I'm just a local guy, and I just came by to see this collection. [Laughs.]. JUDITH RICHARDS: So that's a huge change? He soon turned his talent to oil painting. CLIFFORD SCHORER: We packed up everything to go down there. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Or the auction houses, yeah. JUDITH RICHARDS: Just that it's private. But I don't think she'sI think she's not an Italian native. And I would buy all kinds of crazy things. It was not in the market; it was in an institution. Well, I didn't have that crutch of dealing, so I had to earn money to collect. They had a big sale in the '80s, and just three or four weeks ago they had a sale of Dodo Dorrance, who was the daughter of Jack Dorrance, and in that sale was a beautiful Cezanne, really beautiful Cezanne. I think she's working throughin one of the institutions. CLIFFORD SCHORER: You know, it was the right moment. I mean, you know. It's a very long cycle, so you can't think about it as "I need a salary this year," you know, from the ownership standpoint. That book should be out very soon, actually. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, I tried. And, you know, obviously, Bill Viola was looking at the Old Masters and thinking aboutyou know, he says as much in his own words. And I remember having sort of a few passing conversations. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, I moved around quite a bit. CLIFFORD SCHORER: My understanding is it's around 1911 and '12, yeah. You know, the really great, truly amazing things that anybody would want in their collection have decoupled from the rest of the market, the rest of the market which was the kind ofall the way from, and I say this disparagingly, decorative works up to sort of upper-middle market works. JUDITH RICHARDS: That's, like, a half a million? CLIFFORD SCHORER: You know, I know that. JUDITH RICHARDS: the visual experience is the key. So he got a sense that I was a very strange human being. They would have Saturday gatherings where people would set up folding tables. CLIFFORD SCHORER: The MFA. JUDITH RICHARDS: [Laughs.] Is it an official. [Laughs.] CLIFFORD SCHORER: and he said, you know, "You need to be involved in this museum; you need to be involved with this museum." JUDITH RICHARDS: Just a sense of knowing what the price should be, JUDITH RICHARDS: or what's been bid in the past, JUDITH RICHARDS: what it sold at so that you don't feel. [Affirmative.] JUDITH RICHARDS: Including a photograph? So I didn't want to ship it out on a common carrier, so I actually rented a truck and put it in the truck, and I drove 20 hours, with one quick stop for some junk food. [00:20:00], So I'm looking at it, I'm looking at it, and I'm reading the label, and the label says it's King Seuthes III of 740 BC or something. Winslow Homer (1836-1910), A Fishergirl Baiting Lines (1881), watercolor, 31.8 48.3 cm, Yale University Art Gallery, New Haven, CT. Wikimedia Commons. It sounds, from what you've said, that you prefer a level of anonymity with your loans and your donations. So, CLIFFORD SCHORER: In Spain, in Madrid. JUDITH RICHARDS: Yeah, yeah. previous 1 2 next sort by previous 1 2 next * Note: these are all the books on Goodreads for this author. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. CLIFFORD SCHORER: A 110-foot whale, very big specimen. The Daniele Crespi, which was a very early Daniele Crespi that Otto Naumann, the dealer in New York, had purchased in 1994 as Lombard School. [00:45:59]. JUDITH RICHARDS: Is there an exhibition that you would love to see created that relates to what you've been collecting and discovering and what you want to learn about? [1:00:00], And when a gallery approaches the person, and says, "Look, we're going to catalogue it; we're going to do this; we're going to take it to this city; we're going to show it at this fair; we're going to do these things; we're going to pay the insurance on it; we're going to pay the shipping and all of these things, and, you know, we'd like to earn 15 percent." CLIFFORD SCHORER: Total coincidence. CLIFFORD SCHORER: where you sort ofyou readyou know, I've read some really interesting studies of juvenile ceratopsians and how their horn formations develop. I mean, it's beenand Iyou know, nothing hasyou know, other than a few frustrating failures [laughs], nothing has really pushed me away from it. And it was obsessive. So for the average buyer, philosophically thinking about that, they think, Okay, well, I'm going to sell this, and I'm not going to pay a commission. CLIFFORD SCHORER: that's, you knowand not even scholars, just, you know, let people enjoy them for what they are. Any object there that might have a mark. It was the High Baroque of Rome. I mean, there are many historical examples of seeing some particular painting in a museum and just standing there for 25 minutes and saying, you know, "I can't believe this painting. I mean [00:02:00], JUDITH RICHARDS: Yeah. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And some, you know, lifting, but I usually don't let it get to flaking. And then I would see the object resurface with a new price tag on it. And so the National Gallery has our historic stock books and archive. JUDITH RICHARDS: When you were doing research and you were reading auction catalogues, those are catalogues with the sale prices written in. Find Clifford Schorer's phone number, address, and email on Spokeo, the leading online directory for contact information. So. So, do something to tie it into the Old Masters, either LorraineClaude Lorraineor Poussin orand Cezanne. I mean [00:47:59]. [00:40:10]. How did that acquisition come about? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. JUDITH RICHARDS: So you only spent one year there? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes. So we're all competing for the same limited consignments, for examplegalleries and the auction houses. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Spent one year there. I had this Dutch East India commemorative bowl, which I bought very early on, which I was very, very pleased with, which she just sold to a collector who wanted a Dutch East India commemorative bowl, which I think is fun because the Dutch connection, of coursethe Dutch fueled their money addiction and their art addiction by trading. And they're outside smoking cigarettes, and they're not talking about art. And not being so much in business? CLIFFORD SCHORER: So, you know, there's still an auction wholesale-to-retail spread more because the presentation is slipshod and fast, and, you know, you're in a group of merchandise that goes across the counter on the same day. You know, your real moneymakers, frankly, are selling one or two major paintings. I mean, he and I did engineering projects from the age ofage 11, he would give me. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Or related to artists that are interesting to me. Other kinds of pitfalls that you might, CLIFFORD SCHORER: All of the above. And my role has come down to the things I'm good at, which is financial management and, you know, making sure that we, I think, take measured aesthetic steps. Then we had a second one that was on the market in Paris as sort of "circle of van Dyck," but as soon as I saw it, I recognized that it was the real deal. It's [Nancy Ward] Neilson, Ms. Neilson. And made their own discoveries. [They laugh.] If I saw something in the shop, I would buy it. Monday-Friday, excluding Federal holidays, by appointment. So my businesses create a lot of physical assets. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Of which I can appreciate; I mean, I understand that. If I esteem something aesthetically and the marketplace undervalues it in my humble and completely subjective opinion, it is a rare combination of forces because, in general, when I esteem something aesthetically, the marketplace almost universally esteems it financially, too, and as Chris Apostle and I joke, I have a very common eye. Howwhat was the process of that reattribution officially? So I wrote that program in a month. And I'm trying to remember exactly what it hammered down at, but it hammered down at the reserve, which was something like [$]680,000, CLIFFORD SCHORER: to me. JUDITH RICHARDS: There isn't a lot of coverage of Italians, CLIFFORD SCHORER: I read articles in the Burlington, I read articles in, you know, Prospettiva, you know, yes. So in other words . ], And in the Chinese export world, it wasn't quite that. JUDITH RICHARDS: You talked about the label just saying, "Private Collector." He is considered one of the foremost painters in 19th-century America and a preeminent figure in American art. It was very much a medallion hang, very old-fashioned. [00:10:00]. But, you know, that, to me, is all very rewarding. I mean, you readwith this contemporary art market soaring. And I remember Mrs. Corsini was running around the back of room, actually shouting in the auction room about how outrageously cheap it was and how she was upset about it. JUDITH RICHARDS: I imagine you wanted to preserve the goodwill of the name of Agnew's. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I had a lot of walls in this house. JUDITH RICHARDS: So you weren't in Virginia very long? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Renovations; purchasing a company; selling a fiber optic switchyou know, whatever it isyou know, building a shelteryou know, we do all sorts of different sort of project-based companies, and nothing has cash flow, meaning I don't sell widgets and collect the 39-cent margin on a widget, and I don't sell X number widgets a year. [00:12:00]. Movies. So, anyway, you know, then, at some point, I fixated on the idea that maybe I would do something a little more serious in the art market. JUDITH RICHARDS: So you do all the paperwork yourself? JUDITH RICHARDS: But you would still be in conflict. The art questions were Anthony's bailiwick. JUDITH RICHARDS: Have you encountered any of those with the works you've acquired? And you know, the American catastrophe. And now I think there's a very good process in place. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, yeah. But, you know, if Worcester receives a request from a private gallery, "Can we borrow your Strozzi painting?" My partner and I were going through Plovdiv, and I went to what used to be the Communist Workers' Party headquarters in town, which is now kind of a little makeshift museum. And I had to carry the pieces. [00:42:00], CLIFFORD SCHORER: we closed, yeah, yeah. JUDITH RICHARDS: [Laughs.] I'll go back to college, if they want me. [They laugh. JUDITH RICHARDS: I think we'll conclude. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No. I meansomething very strangebut nothing, no art. Yeah. I remember these place names. I mean, it was something I enjoyed doing, and I would do it again, you know? Clifford is related to Marianne T Schorer and Clifford J Schorer as well as 3 additional people. Just collecting as a general habit. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So, oftenin that case, I would have to call up an Italian curator. I'm thinking of that period before, then I'm going to talk about the panel at the Frick, 2013. JUDITH RICHARDS: Good morning. JUDITH RICHARDS: under the circumstances. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I tried toI made every installation decision. Judith Olch Richards (1947- ) is former executive director of iCI in New York, New York. JUDITH RICHARDS: When youin those early years, did you have a goal? CLIFFORD SCHORER: I consider to be respectable parameters. $14. JUDITH RICHARDS: This is Judith Olch Richards interviewing Cliff Schorer on June 7, 2018, at the Archives of American Art New York City offices. So, I mean, he's at a level way above mine in philanthropy, and very chauvinistic about his city of Antwerp, which is wonderful, because, you know, Antwerp has had, you know, off and on, hard centuries and good centuries. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I mean, I bought aand that's when I started buying paintings. JUDITH RICHARDS: Does Agnew's participate in art fairs? [Laughs. Anyway, I bought her lunch, and I got to go into the room. JUDITH RICHARDS: So, that's the period of time, JUDITH RICHARDS: you were really developing. He would run around to continental auctions back before the internet, and now the kids and I do a lot. CLIFFORD SCHORER: That started 14 years ago, or 10, 12 years ago. Is your name Jim?" I went from, you know, the Gustave Moreau museum to theor well, pre-d'Orsay, right? So we both get on planes, and he goes and finds pictures in Berlin, here, there, and everywhere, and we pull together. Prep the spring onion by cutting the white part, the middle part and the green part and keep them separately. I said, you know, "They found it in 2004." And, you know, there was a day when Agnew's had 40 employees and a full building in London and, you know, exhibitions going on 24-7 and had printmaking exercises, had contemporary artists doing things. It was a fantasy shop that wasn't going to exist, but it was just an idea of how I would pass my time, because I need something to do. JUDITH RICHARDS: You were traveling a lot in the '80s. You know, all of those things, and then you just let go, and it's, you knowit is aI think my psychology is well suited for that in a sense, because I don't have this great lust for the object; I have the lust for the moments that, you know, that sort of [00:36:00]. I brought an entire chair, a French chair, into the passenger cabin. JUDITH RICHARDS: the auctions and the collectors? And I left and I started the company. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I worked thereso while I was working there, my father was lobbying hard to get me to go back to school. But, yeah, I had a programming job there. JUDITH RICHARDS: Wasare those kinds of panels very useful to you as a collector, let's say, if you were in the audience? I ended up there, and I made the deal with the devil, which was if I was first in my class, I could not go back. And, you know, obviously, we also value our clients; we work with our clients. [They laugh.]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Porcelain. JUDITH RICHARDS: Climate-controlled art storage? CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, I'm not that interested. It turned out well. I have the Coronation Halberd of the Archduke Albrecht, and it's in the museum at Worcester [laughs], and, no. For an angel, I thought this was [laughs] such an unusual thing, to give them such a worldly attribute, you know, almost a peasant, worldly attribute. And I learned to say the most rudimentary things. JUDITH RICHARDS: You mentioned the Snyders House, the Rubens House, and one more. So they had had merger discussions in the '70s to merge the institutions, and the Higgins finally ran out of runway. They'reyou know, they're interesting folks to read about. CLIFFORD SCHORER: It's a very different game. I'm improving the collection. JUDITH RICHARDS: because most of the material was only sold at auction? They may not appreciate how much I'm absorbing from them, but, you know, I'm gratuitously stealing from them. Clifford Schorer Co Founder & Director Mr. Schorer is a serial entrepreneur who specializes in the start-up acquisition and development of small and mid-sized companies. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I'm sure it was all an interest in history. I said, "Well, you know, that's exciting news." Birth date: 9 August, 1917, Thursday. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And I bought a lot of blue-and-white from Kangxi and Qianlong because that, again, was what was plentiful in the New England homes. He bought the [Frans] Snyders HouseSnyders is the artist. I sold all the export wares. I would be 16, turning 17 in that year. They were the combat correspondents of their day, traveling and living with soldiers. Winslow Homer Casting, Number Two, 1894. My mother wasmy mother was a single mother who was living away from the house 90 percent of the time. It really had damaged the reputation of the picture. So, no. I don't know where that came from, but it was an instinctive sense. CLIFFORD SCHORER: You're putting a value judgment on it that I, you know, I'm uncomfortable making entirely myself. He was a very important stamp collector. JUDITH RICHARDS: So you moved on after about three and a half years. JUDITH RICHARDS: Could anything be done? I could see the entry drug of drawings is one that I probably never would have left, because it'sthat's actually a little broader a field. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, an earthly attribute. Well, that's because it's a posthumous portrait. JUDITH RICHARDS: Mm-hmm. So I think back then it was much more about a buying strategy, and, you know, I think now I would say, Be very cautious and very slow, because now the market is created to separate you from your money and, JUDITH RICHARDS: And this applies to specifically Italian Baroque or any of the areas you've, CLIFFORD SCHORER: generally speaking, what's happened is the auction market, which used to be a wholesaler's market, has become a mass market, and as such, the marketing techniques employed have become mass-market marketing techniques. I don't know if, CLIFFORD SCHORER: I don't know if I would say collecting books. So there were, you know, four or five sales a year. JUDITH RICHARDS: Oh, no, it's not that long. But that wasn't what brought me to it. I'll sort it out on Google. So, sure, I read, you know, whatever I could find. [Affirmative.] And I decided my aesthetic. [00:26:00]. We do TEFAF New York, TEFAF Maastricht, Masterpiece. Well, we talked about that a little earlier. And I got to the point whereand again, I'll beI'll stand corrected on this, because I know a collector in Boston who has a very strong opinion on what I'm about to saybut I ended my venture in Chinese export porcelain to my satisfaction, meaning that I couldn't go any further in that particular collecting area, other than to buy more expensive, singular examples of the same thing. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, they close rooms. JUDITH RICHARDS: Mm-hmm. JUDITH RICHARDS: Was that coincidence that you ran into them? So, yes, something like that that comesan opportunity like that would derail any project for a period, but then we'd come back to our projects, you know. So. CLIFFORD SCHORER: But anyway, I mean, noI mean, I knew of the name and the connection, but there's never been any. And I think, giventhe market history had sullied the picture. The central figure is Olive Blake. CLIFFORD SCHORER: They werethey had the English family connections to allow them to continue to trade when others were forced to do business with people that were, shall we say, less than scrupulous, and so that was a lucky break in a sense. JUDITH RICHARDS: What's his name? We just have a little more time today perhaps, if you want to take more time? CLIFFORD SCHORER: I think, you know, my life is here in the States, and, you know, Ithe fortunate thing is that I haven't quit my day job, because if I relied uponbecause the gallery is an unevena very uneven cash flow. But they don'tthey certainly don't show them together except in a rare circumstance, where they might have a focal exhibition where showing the preparatory things adds something to the didactic, not theit's not done simply to put the painting on the wall next to a print, you know, next to an engraving. When you were also collecting that area, did you find the need and actually, in fact, travel to other cities? So. I mean, not, of course, of the quality of Randolph Hearst [laughs], but of a quantity, for sure. JUDITH RICHARDS: Because how you define a collection and the price point? clifford schorer winslow homer. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, the story is, I would say, more humorous than anything else, because my thought was that someday, when I was an old lonely geezer, I would have an antique shop, or I would sell bric-a-brac. So they used to have in their little museumsthey probablyonce, back in the '50s and during communism, they probably had these Thracian pieces, you know, that they found in the ground, and then the National Museum sort of pulled them all into the National Museum. My Antwerp pre-1600 pictures were all on panel. I think that they're, shall we say, more demanding of one's time, so you have to be available for them, and you have to work with them more individually. So that's a hugeI mean, fiscally, they were on a path to 10 years and the money would be gone, back in the day, because you know, they were spending eight to nine percent plus capital, you know, plus cap ex, and you can't do that, you know; grandma's jewels only last so long.

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